He was always the straight man, he's just a more depressing character now. Him setting up a word document for Creed's blog was funnier than anything with him this year.

Apologies in advance for immediately going for the obvious explanation, but we'll never know how much the strike affected this show and the writing of all the major storylines. I think the dinner party episode was mostly filmed before the strike hit, so Jan and Michael were going to explode no matter what, but did anybody think Michael and Jan were going to make it to the show's end? I think the abbreviated season has definitely put some crimps on things, and I haven't felt the same strong buildup to the series finale that we got the last two seasons.

I'm kind of surprised you mentioned that Dwight doesn't try to take over the office anymore, considering we had him whip out that org chart just two episodes ago. In one of the commentaries from Season 3 Rainn Wilson mentions that Dwight takes over the office like 4 or 5 times in the span of that season, and that might be an exaggeration, but just barely. How many times can you go to that well without just having Dwight run the office?

I might be in a minority that still thinks The Office is great (and it's incredible to think that I'd be saying "minority" right now), but I think that if ever there could be an entire transition season for a television show, this is the one. Think about it - just about every major storyline that carried The Office in two and a quarter seasons have been blown off now. Jim and Pam, Michael's desire for power, Dwight and Angela, the branch merger, Ryan and Kelly - all that has come to an end. In the UK, The Office got a very neat closure. US TV doesn't allow that; not while there's still money to be made. Obviously, the show's creators had to know that was happening and had to plan for it, but still, that's a lot of storylines that have come to an end, and you're also left with trying to make a relationship between the two main love interests work out (which never happens) and having new stuff for people in the office to do. And that's not easy. It's not an excuse - after all, it's their jobs - but, let's face it, Seasons 2 and 3 might have been a peak, the kind that you hardly ever see in TV and might not see again from this show. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I think Season 5 will be better, quite frankly, unless the SAG kills THAT as well. The major plot lines will have more time to flesh out, and the little character beats, in-jokes, and such (which I watch the show for, mainly) will still be there. I have faith.

And I know that Kevx301 will be right there with me, bitching and telling me how wrong I am. In a way, that's comforting.

Kind of like thunderstorms at night...

I think you guys think I want The Office to be bad, which is completely not the case. I'll openly admit if the show gets good again. I liked last week's How I Met Your Mother, well Forte and Harris at least, after weeks of ragging on it. I just think the show's been lazy this year, and has relied on "we're supposed to laugh at Dwight saying something because it's Dwight" or "OMG Jim made a face at the camera!" rather than actually creating the lines or moments that made those things funny in the first place.

I am still enjoying The Office, but it's feeling more and more like late season Seinfeld, where the absurdity of every episode although funny on first viewing, doesn't hold up particularly well to repeat viewings.

I hope they tighten up for next season.

Wow. I think Season 9 Seinfeld is the best season they did.

While it's not as good as earlier seasons, I can still, and do, watch Seinfeld three times a day. An hour on TBS and then at 11:00 syndicated on FOX.

"I got no leg room back here. Move your seat forward."
"That's as far as it goes."
"There's a mechanism. You just pull it and throw your body weight."
"I pulled it. It doesn't go."
"If you want the leg room say you want the leg room. Don't blame the mechanism."

I think Seinfeld is one of the few shows where you can watch any episode as many times as you want.

The last two seasons of Seinfeld are probably my favorite of the entire series. I know it got a little more wacky, but I think that's what made it so funny.

You really need to stop admitting to stuff like this like it's some kind of badge of honor.

You got me. I was expecting you guys to call me and phone-five me because of how many times I watch Seinfeld.

Really, if you want to disagree with my opinions on things, fine, but that was just a really stupid post you made.

Getting back to the digression of this thread toward Seinfeld, while a lot of people don't like them, I prefer the older episodes. They don't need to make a joke every 5 seconds to be funny. They have character development and funny storylines. The show just seemed like it was crawling in the last few seasons.

Well you did go into detail about when and what stations you watch the show. So, yeah...it kind of comes off as a "hey, I can watch it three times a day still! And do! Wanna know when? I'll tell ya..."

Seinfeld had little character development in ANY season. Jerry remained the central straight man to a lot of the antics going around him. Kramer remained nutty. George and Elaine progressed I guess. More from regular people to bitter people. But let's not lie and pretend that any of them went through major developments and grew as characters. The people you meet in Seasons 1 & 2 are by and large the people that they are in Season 9.

EDIT: And actually, George was the same character throughout. He got fired in what...season 3 for using his bosses bathroom and then tried slip a mickey to his boss for revenge. It's the same bitter Costanza that wouldn't give Steve Koren a scholarship because he wanted to be a city planner in season 8.

So really...only Elaine can be interpreted as a character that grew. She went for a likeable cute girl next door type to a really sarcastic hot piece of ass.

I disagree. Look at The Busboy for example. George puts out the fire at the restaurant, and then in a later episode runs when there is the fire in the kitchen. While he was a paranoid man, his paranoia rises to extreme levels as the show progresses. When they're pitching the pilot George just wants 50,000. In the finale he actually complains about a private jet.

I can see where you can say that the characters never really progressed beyond their original descriptions, but their personalities definitely developed to extreme levels almost becoming exaggerated examples of what they once were. That's as a whole for the show. The point I was making about earlier seasons is that you got a story, and you weren't really sure how it would end up. Either George, Jerry or Elaine usually ended up the victor with one, or both of the other two getting screwed over. Seasons 8 and 9 it just seemed like the stories were: Someone pisses them off, they come up with a plan to change them, but everyone ends up losing in the end.

and here I thought it was a sly reference:

Ugh. Now I'm going to have nightmares thinking about the Busboy episode of Seinfeld. Quite frankly the unfunniest 22 minutes of television I've ever sat through.

*shivers*

Guys, 20 minutes into this and I'm already having a bad, bad feeling about this. I'm sure it's obvious what's going to happen, but fuck this is going to be something to talk about. Yipes!

Oh well, maybe not, seemed too good to be true. Awesome season finale.

Oh, my. Um, well, for those wondering my thoughts during the episode:



Aren't you glad I put that in spoiler blocks?

Wait a minute, as I was typing that:



Okay, I'm done with that, I think. Um, I'm going to have to watch this again for sure. That was a wild episode. Maybe the whole point of the relatively pedestrian episodes before was for this. If so, then kudos to them. Oh, wow, just wow. So, yeah, great season-ender.

Holy fucking fuck! Eat shit, kevx! "I don't like the direction this is taking" my ass. That was totally mindblowing.

I laughed like a moron for about 45 seconds when

I also love

Also awesome, but sort of a cock tease was

Anyone else

I am not sure how I feel about (although it was a nice shock)

Spoiler tags suck. Eat shit, west coast! Just kidding.

I thought one of the funniest moments of the show was when Andy started walking away with the microphone and the keyboard went with it and off camera you could hear Daryl yell "DAMN!". Hilarious.

Crazy episode, with a ton of information packed into an hour. There is so much to look forward to in season five.

All I can say is all the previous lackluster post-strike episodes are completely forgiven with this extraordinarily awesome episode. I am so, so pumped for next season. In the span of this one episode, they built about 5-7 things I'm really totally interested in seeing play out.

All the scenes with Kevin and the new HR lady (what's her name?) had me laughing my ass off. And christ, pratically every scene built up to something or was hilarious.

The new HR is Holly, right. Yeah I liked a lot of this episode. Though I still stand by his assertion that I might never be a Pam fan after the way Season 3 ended.

Wow, talk about swerves. Now, that's what a finale should be. They managed to keep the PB&J stuff going and extended, which making me feel like it was dragging. Andy Bernard is my favorite character on the show... I never saw that coming. And come on, no one thought the Toby shit was gonna go down... every female viewer in the country would have sworn off the show.

"Don't tell him but I always thought he was cute" was SUCH a burn to every Toby/Pam scene from the last 2 seasons, almost a perfect ending. The Dave Matthews Band reference had me rolling. They couldn't have made the Holly any more perfect for Michael. Can't wait till the next season; the vast majority of television is still nowhere near this great.

...and once again, the DVDVR message board gets it right (and gets it) on their reaction to the Office finale, and the Television Without Pity message board does, well, not. I don't know what's funnier: the one hour show itself, or reading all these Pam/Jim obsessives with their panties in a wad. (Well, actually, the show's much funnier, but still going through those boards is a hoot.)

And I agree that Pam admitting Toby is "kind of cute" is a wonderful end-note to that ongoing subplot. (Although now I think about it, didn't she say a similar thing when the Office Gang were playing "Who Would You Do?" during the fire in S2?)

Does anyone know if the new HR person is going to stick around? It would great to have a Michael/Holly/Jan triangle (or hell, a Michael/Holly/Kevin one.)

Pam said Oscar during the fire.

Everything with the whole Pam/Jim thing has been so low-key I'm almost wondering when something blows up out of nowhere. The whole going away thing would have ground most other plots to a halt, but here it was barely an afterthought and life just sorta seemed to move on even after Jim's proposal thunder was stolen. If anything, they took a well-placed backseat this season to everything else that was going on, and needed to be there.

I kinda wish Michael would develop more of a backbone towards Jan even if it wouldn't be in-character for him to do so. Jan knows she can manipulate Michael because she knows deep down he can't say no to her. Although I'm not going to rule out the possibility that either the baby is a) his or b) Hunter's and that she just flat out lied about getting the "donation". Great finale that looked like a curtain-closer with a good number of loose ends tied and not a cliff-hanger until the last five seconds of the show.

Although it does beg the question as to what they do with the honcho job that Ryan just vacated.

I think Rashida Jones is available once again. I mean if they didn't have the time they wanted to run the whole Jim persecuted by a higher-up storyline they'd planned for this year, they can just slip her into the heel position. I honestly expected the ending to be Jim being offered Ryan's job. I'm guessing they knew that's what people would be thinking and that's why they just let it slide for now.

I do think Pam came off as a bit of an ass for wondering out loud why Jim didn't propose...She's smarter than that. I like the parallel between early Jim/Pam and Michael/Holly. I hadn't really picked up on that as a new theme. If there was such a thing as a "Pam" for Michael, Holly is it, complete with regretful glances and missed opportunities. This could be good. It will allow them to keep Michael sympathetic without making him any less stupid.

Speechless. Right up there with Casino Night as the most captivating TV I've ever personally watched. A couple of quick thoughts:

If I'm not mistaken, that makes the last three Office season finales arguably the best episode of TELEVISION (not just The Office) that season.

I agree with that assessment.

I agree with it. And I think this may have been my favorite season finale yet. Just pure gut-wrenching at the end there.

What can I add that hasn't already been said? Great finale. Great storylines. I guess the only thing left unsaid is the whole Jan "sperm bank" storyline... I have a feeling that we'll end up finding out that it's Michael's after all. I am also guilty of a YouTube search for the Ryan arrest... that was just so awesome. I think everyone kind of saw the proposal screwjob coming, however the swerve was there when it was Andy, not Toby. But man, I don't care what anyone says about this show, it's still HANDS DOWN my favorite show on television. Now I bide my time waiting for Season Five... I hope they do some more of those "mini shows" online again.

- KSM

They were advertising webisodes starting in July....

Yeah going that route makes so much sense and hopefully it happens.

Is BJ Novak (Ryan) still going to be writing for this show? It seemed like that was the last time we'll see that character, so I was wondering if he'll still be a writer.

Four words: talking heads from prison. Fuck yeah.

Or, my theory while watching it last night was that it's Ryan's baby. Don't know why. Desperate Jan tries to screw her way back onto the payroll, I dunno, but that was so totally my hunch.

So does the webisodes mean that they are going to do the summer skip thing again? It would seem strange that Jim STILL hasn't proposed to Pam sometime over the next 3 months. And to me Pam didn't come off as an Ass for wondering aloud why Jim didn't propose. I think it was connecting the viewer more with Pam in that she felt the same stomach punch we all felt when Jim didn't propose in the episode. Would it really have been that big of a deal to have taken her to the side and proposed later? It wasn't like he was going to do it in front of everyone anyway, and the fact that Andy ruined it just plays into the whole screwy office dynamic of their relationship.

I think the webisodes are just the accountants. That's what it was last year, anyway. I'm sure it'll just feature minor characters.

As somebody else said...does this mean Ryan is done with The Office? Same with Toby? I'm assuming neither will be seen on air, but are they still writers?

The one positive I can pull from this episode is the potential of Ryan in prison. With Toby gone, it's up to him and Creed to provide laughs.

I'm sure Ryan will still be on the show. You can't tell me Michael won't visit him in prison, and it wouldn't surprise me if he baked a file in a cake to help him break out.

Really enjoyed the episode. I laughed for a while when Michael mouthed "I'll kill you" to Toby. I was saddened when he decided to go with Jan to her class. Then again, Holly was too perfect for Michael for things to work out.

Okay, I've tried not to take any unnecessary swipes at you on this thread, because it's rather obvious that our opinions on this television program differ and that's that. However, when you make a statement like THAT, I don't think it's outside my providence to suggest that perhaps you give the show up as lost and watch a different program at 9 PM on Thursdays. There will certainly be chances to watch a random Ryan/Creed talking head on the internet without having to subject yourself to a show you once (apparently) liked and now hate.

For the record, I thought this was a very good finale, Amy Ryan's a great addition to the show, there were tons of great individual moments, Kevin's plotline was fantastic and paid off four years of Kevin's character nicely (IMO, a real sop to fans that've watched that long), and the writers have essentially set up at least half, if not all, of Season Five. You really cannot ask for more than that in a season finale.

Sorry for two straight posts.

I want to hear Kev's ideas if he were to take over for Season 5. Hell, let's go all the way back to when you first started hating the show. What would you change? You don't even have to worry about copyrighting your storylines b/c I doubt anyone will remember them to make shows based on them.

So let's hear what you got.

That's exactly what a storyline thief would say.

...caught. Dammit Dempsey!

You're right. I'm sure you've never critiqued anything in your life. To answer tlingman, I still want the show to get better, and hope it will. Plus, it's one of the shows you have to watch to be in the loop of things.

When I started hating the show was when Meredith survived the car accident. If she died, we would've been saved from her absolute awfulness in every capacity.

Okay, dude...I was being serious. I want to hear your ideas. Not everyone here is out to get you. You seem to have a negative opinion on the show and a positive about your own abilities to be a storyteller.

So tell me a story, for Christ's sake.

Well, I mean, I've always wanted Scrubs to be as good as it was in its first two or three seasons, and I'm relatively sure it's not happening. So I let the show go. I dunno, just watching it because you hope the show will meet your expectations and being disappointed again and again doesn't seem like fun to me.

I find it interesting that a peripheral character inspired that much disgust and hatred in you (aside from the opinion that her death would improve the show). In an odd, backhanded way, that's a real compliment to how deep the show is.

I really hope she was just expressing her disappointment on behalf of the audience there. She is smart enough to know that Jim was going to do it, and Andy ruined the moment. She has to be. They've been so smart about Pam and Jim that it seems highly unlikely that Pam will hold this against Jim, but who knows.

Oh, and the best part of the Mike/Holly bond was when Michael did the Yoda bit and there was a pause where if she reacted like everyone else in the office does to Michael, then she wasn't for him, but she jumped right into the Yoda thing after a beat or two. And then they did the Master Thespian bit, and Holly even said "Lovitz" in the exact same way Michael does when cluing people in to his reference (although Michael screws it up more often than not. "My lips are sealed. Bangles.") It looks like they are perfect for each other.