Disclaimer: This is about hardcore punk, not metal, and only from the 80s.

I've always considered Black Flag's "Damaged" the be the definitave hardcore album of the 80s, but I don't think the band as a whole embodies hardcore. Their later stuff was great, but it was more rock and roll. Dead Kennedys' "Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables" is another great album, but the DKs also started to waiver with their later albums. I've been listening to a lot of Cro-Mags and Bad Brains lately, but I think I'm going to have to go with Minor Threat as the definative hardcore band of the 80s, possibly in the entire history of American hardcore.

This album
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by this band

defines it for me, as the final separation point of hardcore from punk. But I think you need to elaborate on what "embodies hardcore" for you before there can be a more indepth discussion.

Yeah, I'd say that Black Flag "hardcore" and Dead Kennedys "hardcore punk" are of two completely different genres.

Agnostic Front...Murphys Law...etc. All awesome examples of the more hardcore bands in the 80s.

Negative Approach?

(I would also say Youth of Today and Judge, but that'll just get me laughed at.)

I just kind of meant what band represents 80s hardcore the best. As in, if you had to show someone who had never heard any of that stuff before one band, what band/album would it be.

Also....I just kind of started this thread to see who would respond cuz I couldn't find any discussion in the music forum on stuff I liked :-P

Yeah, I think most people would say those bands were like the beginnings of the metalcore genre. But whatever.

Youth of Today can be downright unlistenable at times. Ray Cappo's voice is just strange. I don't know.

GANG GREEN!

The Proletariat, and arguably the Freeze, were better.

If the answer to the original question isn't Black Flag or Minor Threat, I'm stumped. Neither one is a favorite of mine--at least not anymore--but I can't think of any bands more "definitive."

Also, what "hardcore" meant then and means now are two completely different things. What "hardcore" has become completely obfuscates what it meant then. Black Flag were hardcore. The Minutemen were hardcore. Husker Du were hardcore. Hell, the Meat Puppets were hardcore (at least on the first album). I'd even go as far as to say that Nomeansno were/are hardcore.

Which just leads me to say what I always say and that is that musical genre-casting is a useless exercise after awhile even if it is fun.

whoa whoa whoa...

What's with all this negative Youth of Today talk?

Got to say it is either DKs, who really kept to it, or the people that invented Hardcore, The Bad Brains.

As for Yot, Ray Cappo was a fool.

YOT were straight forward hardcore, no metalcore there (the only metal to it was that it was trying to be DYS and SSD). Judge were sort of the second generation on the metalized NYHC sound though. For bands that directly influenced the metalcore that evolved into the current crap you have to go early 90s.

As far as the question at hand, for me personally its The Cro-Mags and Age of Quarrel or Negative Approach. But i think over all and universally it has to be Minor Threat or The Bad Brains. Black Flag are hardcore in the way that they were so,..well, hardcore, but they always seemed to be something more to me, a bit beyond it.

Ray IS a fool still. YOT had their day though and i dont think they get enough credit for their role in the late 80s hardcore scene renascence around NYC and southern Connecticut that was pretty amazing.

I'd say either Bad Brains or the Gorilla Biscuits. Man, the Biscuits had some AWESOME records.

I'm going with a tie between Minor Threat and Bad Brains, though if it wasn't for the jah stuff, I'd put Bad Brains first.

Gang Green definitely win the "Best New England/Boston Hardcore Band."

No love for the Circle Jerks?

i will also agree with minor threat and bad brains, but for me personally, 7 seconds was the band that got me into hardcore the first time i heard them back in 1987.

-jlowe

That. And yay, Batboy's baaack!

And agreed with Dev.

And I wouldn't say Minor Threat. They were great and seminal and all that other good stuff, but they never did it for me. I like:

The first two TSOL EPs
Verbal Abuse
Discharge
BLACK FLAG
Bad Brains
Nomeansno (the Dillinger of the 80s)
That first Neurosis album.
Dead Kennedys

And as for 'metalcore', the DK's were essentially thrash before thrash happened anyway. And let's not forget SOD.

I'm sorry to be the first to start arguing semantics, but what exactly do we mean by definitive? I'd assume that we mean the band(s) which defined hardcore in the 1980s. If so, I guess we should consider what is the definitive 80s hardcore sound. Do we dismiss NYC style as too metal? Which is the more "definitive" sound--DC or SoCal? Then, the question is whether we go with (a) the band which best embodies the sound--sort of a platonic ideal of hardcore; or (b) the band most responsible for creating the sound.

I apologize for all of that, by the way. Just had to get it out of my system. If we're just picking favorites here, I'd go with Bad Brains or Angry Samoans.

uh, cro-mags define hardcore, period.

and youth defense league.

Hadn't 7 Seconds started to leave the hardcore sound behind them in 87. But that said they were my favorite hardcore band all through high school.

personly for me its sick of it all and agnostic front, but what do i know? i guess they might have been early 90s so ignore my foolishness

Nah, Agnostic was mid-'80's and SoiA started putting out records in the late-'80's. 'Sall cool :)

I was always a fan of DRI (Dirty Rotten Imbeciles) in all their stages, from blur speed to crossover thrash. Early CoC (pre-southern rock) was pretty fun, too. And thinking of Gang Green and Boston's finest brings to mind Jerry's Kids.

End thread.

:) THE COMEDIAN :)

GOVERNMENT ISSUE! MARGINAL MAN!

MANOWAR! MANOWAR! LIVIN' ON THE ROAD!

WHEN WE'RE IN TOWN-- SPEAKERS *EXPLODE~!*

GB would only qualify if they werent so un-hardcore in so many ways by the time the album came out and didnt operate like a youth crew boy band.
Government issue were amazing and dont get the love that many way shittier DC still get.
SOIA gets points still going at it and not ever stopping after 20 years, even if the music is stale.

Also, the singer's voice cracked on at least one of their songs ("Finish What You Started," IIRC).

Someone brought up Husker Du as an archaic-definition hardcore band. I think Land Speed Record actually sounds pretty much like hardcore c. 1981, only better (since Husker Du was better than any of the hardcore bands active then). I actually don't have problem with rock and roll taxonomy if it's based on the music rather than the scene, and early Huskers is inarguably hardcore. It just gets tricky when you try to figure out what to call them from Zen Arcade forward.

I think with bands with Husker Du and a few others mentioned earlier that had early hardcore records that arent generally defined as such, you have to consider that in a short time what most defined as hardcore narrowed while alot of bands branched out. That sort repaints the image of what bands were and werent hardcore, even if doing so innacurately. My feeling however has been that a true hardcore band has to have some ties to the scene or culture, if i may borrow from Verbal Assault, its more than music.

oh damn, I love Government Issue. Even their later hard rock sound stuff. I remember me and friend go to see Scream at 7th Street Entry and there's some white dude playing bass instead of Skeeter(I think that was his name). We find out it's Jay Robbins and we ask him what happened with GI and he just kind of matter of factly says they played their last show the week before. Man, were we bummed. On a side note, this is when Dave Grohl was in Scream and he set up his drums right on the street, started playing them and it just echoed throughout downtown Minneapolis. That was really cool.

I choose the Adolescents.

I'm gonna hafta go with Minor Threat on this one. They didn't invent hardcore, and it's also pretty arguable whether they were the best hardcore band, but in my mind, they symbolize hardcore the most. They lyrics, the sound, and the aesthetics of the band provided the template for just about every hardcore band that came after them. Their influence is so severe, it's ridiculous. Think about it this way: Try picturing hard rock without Led Zeppelin. Can't do it. The same can be said for Minor Threat.

The other two bands that I think come close are Black Flag and the Bad Brains. The Bad Brains invented the shit, and when it comes right down to it, they're still light years ahead of the majority of hardcore bands today. What prevents them from defining hardcore for me, though, is the flirtation with reggae and the homophobia that pretty much killed their career.

Black Flag is probably #2 on the list for me. They were definitely the scariest hardcore band, and nobody made audiences react the way Flag did. Nobody made mainstream society react the way Flag did, too, for that matter. They were definitely the hardest working band of that scene, and rocked out harder than just about everyone else, excluding the Bad Brains. What holds them back from being the definitive hardcore band is the output from '84 to '86. I love all that shit, mind you, but it ain't hardcore. If they had broken up after Damaged, or My War had been released with the five person lineup that included Chuck Biscuits, they'd be at the top.

This topics making me want to read through Get In The Van again

Even though I LOVED Marginal Man, and Kenny was a good pal of mine, I don't consider them a hardcore band.

First of all, I don't consider Black Flag or the Dead Kennedys hardcore, the music that they, the Germs, the Circle Jerks and the Butthole Surfers played was original West Coast Punk, the neat thing about those bands, were that they all had different styles. Hardcore to me, well 80's HxCx is Agnostic Front, DOA, Minor Threat, Adrenaline OD, Raw Power and Die Kruzen. My problem with the late 80's HxCx scene is that some great HxCx bands, got caught up in the whole Thrash/Metal thing and totally alienated alot of the punk kids that had supported them early on.

I would say Minor Threat hands down, I'm surprised there's so much variety to the answers so far.

I never thought of Butthole Surfers as a hardcore band, partly because I always think that the Texas bands (with some exceptions, like maybe DRI) come partly from a much weirder tradition stretching back to Roky Erickson.

The earliest use of the term "hardcore" that I've seen is in an issue of Search and Destroy, specifically an interview with the Avengers' Penelope Houston. I'd have to get the reprint book out (highly, highly recommended, btw) out to get the quote exactly right, but I remember the term being used as a way to differentiate the bands which stuck to a narrower definition of punk/new wave. At the time, "punk" and "new wave" were being used interchangeably, at least in some circles. I've heard that record companies later appropriated "new wave" to describe somewhat safer sounding bands, which made them easier to market, but that's based on some secondary account. Maybe Jello Biafra's interview in the S&D reprint. Anyway, Houston sort of balked at using the term to describe her band, IIRC. I think "hardcore punk" was essentially what we think of as "punk" today. I'm not sure, but I would think that hardcore punk developed into plain hardcore as the suburban SoCal bands picked up on the DC sound, making "hardcore" a national (rather than regional) sub-genre. But I'm not sure that this actually corresponds with reality.

I'm older than most on this board, but I was too young (and in the wrong part of the country) to have any first hand experience in this matter. Those of you who were around, what is the earliest you can remember the term "hardcore" being used to describe a specific type of music?

Also, I would kill for some Adrenaline OD, Raw Power, or White Flag. Or at the very least make a nice trade offer.

UNITED MUTATIONS!
MALEFICE!

(I will never run out of harDCore bands!)

This thread makes me not like music.

I don't like music fans, generally, so that's good to know.

EDIT: Okay, maybe I should explain--I think it's silly that SOME fans of rock and roll can't take discussions of the history of their favorite forms of music. In 20-30 years, only weird antiquarians are going to care about this stuff anyway.

Nothing could stop me liking music.

I am one of the oldest MF'rs on the board that was an actual scene participant back in the day. I remember going to Flynns, The Cameo Theater and the Cell in SoFla to see shows referred to as Hardcore as early as April of 1985. I saw Agnostic Front open for the Exploited at the Lincoln Theater in Miami Beach in 1987 (I had my 2 front teeth knocked out by a skinhead while I was skanking {moshing for you kids}at that show). I had been listening to Black Flag since I graduated High School in 1982 and never heard them referred to as Hardcore until I heard some kids talking about it a few years ago and it kind of drew my attention, I really think the only connection between BF and hardcore is the fact that Hank was a product of that scene and was tight with Minor Threat back in the day....I don't consider them HC. BTW, David, if you want to PM me, I have the wacky hijinks of adrenaline OD and some other Hardcore classics that I can turn you on to if you want.

ARTICLES OF FAITH!
IRON CROSS!

Add Articles of Faith to my want list (about to PM you, Mr. Rose). Their first album was produced by...Bob Mould.

Definitely reading this thread and bumming on how bastardized hardcore is now. Any modern hardcore that doesn't suck ass? I listened to some new Slapshot the other day and boy, it blew, and Sick Of It All haven't done a thing for me since "Call To Arms."

I don't know if you'd like them, but I've really been impressed with Majority Rule recently. Not traditional HC, though - more in the vein of Converge. Very dynamic actually.

YES. Listen to this man. Majority Rule is fucking awesome. Too bad they're broken up.

Damnit! As soon as I get into a band, they don't exist. When did this happen? Are Wolves still going?

Theres a few good Thrashy bands around these days. Slapshots first 2 albu,s are so awesome, but they didnt do much good after that. They still play in Europe but stopped doing many state shows due to having beef with too many people you shouldnt.

You'll both be happy to know that I've been listening to Majority Rule for a couple years now, and try to keep somewhat up to date on the whole Robotic Empire/Virginia scene (spawned from a love for pg.99).

But yeah, I'm looking for more traditional hardcore that's made these days that doesn't suck - if that exists.